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	<title>Comments on: Josh Phelps and the consequences of unforced rules</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/</link>
	<description>Baseball, Cheating, and Rules discussion at the author's blog for the Cheater's Guide to Baseball</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 06:29:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-731</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 18:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-731</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That’s not at all what I said. Thanks&lt;/i&gt;

That is what you said when you wrote:

&lt;i&gt;You can field the ball and make the tag, but you can’t put your feet in a position where the runner can’t reach home plate while you receive the ball and turn and tag the guy out.&lt;/i&gt;

And I am still totally lost on your play at second.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That’s not at all what I said. Thanks</i></p>
<p>That is what you said when you wrote:</p>
<p><i>You can field the ball and make the tag, but you can’t put your feet in a position where the runner can’t reach home plate while you receive the ball and turn and tag the guy out.</i></p>
<p>And I am still totally lost on your play at second.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-730</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 06:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-730</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s not at all what I said. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not at all what I said. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-729</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 06:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-729</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m arguing that the runner can’t attempt to take out the second baseman who is fielding the ball for the force out. &lt;/i&gt;

I can&#039;t remember the last time I saw a second baseman standing on second base and fielding a ground ball.  Is that the play you are talking about?

&lt;i&gt;My point is that catchers block the plate in cases where it is not legal for them to do so, and they get away with it.&lt;/i&gt;

My point is your stated belief that the catcher must be in possession in order to block the plate is wrong.  It is wrong by rule and interpretation.  In college, high school and most youth ball you would be correct, but not at the pro level.  

Frankly, it doesn&#039;t make sense for the catcher to block the plate against the rules.  First, he is going to get wiped out by the runner and secondly, the runner is going to be awarded the base.  So I have a feeling that you are applying a standard to when the catcher may block the base that is not accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’m arguing that the runner can’t attempt to take out the second baseman who is fielding the ball for the force out. </i></p>
<p>I can&#8217;t remember the last time I saw a second baseman standing on second base and fielding a ground ball.  Is that the play you are talking about?</p>
<p><i>My point is that catchers block the plate in cases where it is not legal for them to do so, and they get away with it.</i></p>
<p>My point is your stated belief that the catcher must be in possession in order to block the plate is wrong.  It is wrong by rule and interpretation.  In college, high school and most youth ball you would be correct, but not at the pro level.  </p>
<p>Frankly, it doesn&#8217;t make sense for the catcher to block the plate against the rules.  First, he is going to get wiped out by the runner and secondly, the runner is going to be awarded the base.  So I have a feeling that you are applying a standard to when the catcher may block the base that is not accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-725</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 03:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-725</guid>
		<description>Also, why is 7.09 wrong on MLB&#039;s site? This is annoying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, why is 7.09 wrong on MLB&#8217;s site? This is annoying.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-724</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 03:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-724</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think we&#039;re arguing the same thing. I&#039;m not arguing a runner can&#039;t slide into second. I&#039;m arguing that the runner can&#039;t attempt to take out the second baseman who is fielding the ball for the force out. This is called out specifically.

It&#039;s in 7.09:
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.


And on the home plate thing, it&#039;s the same thing: I&#039;m not arguing that they can&#039;t, or don&#039;t, block the plate, or that it isn&#039;t a judgement call.

My point is that catchers block the plate in cases where it is not legal for them to do so, and they get away with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re arguing the same thing. I&#8217;m not arguing a runner can&#8217;t slide into second. I&#8217;m arguing that the runner can&#8217;t attempt to take out the second baseman who is fielding the ball for the force out. This is called out specifically.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s in 7.09:<br />
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.</p>
<p>And on the home plate thing, it&#8217;s the same thing: I&#8217;m not arguing that they can&#8217;t, or don&#8217;t, block the plate, or that it isn&#8217;t a judgement call.</p>
<p>My point is that catchers block the plate in cases where it is not legal for them to do so, and they get away with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-723</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 03:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-723</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Guys running to second are totally allowed by the umps to take out a fielder who’s making a transfer, even if the fielder is off the base. They’re not supposed to be able to do that.&lt;/i&gt;

If the runner can reach the base with his feet or hand, it is a legal slide and the contact is allowed.  Both players are allowed by rule and interpretation to be in their respective positions.  The runner cannot simply disappear.

&lt;i&gt;You can field the ball and make the tag, but you can’t put your feet in a position where the runner can’t reach home plate while you receive the ball and turn and tag the guy out.&lt;/i&gt;

That would be incorrect.

Direct from the rulebook:  Rule 2.00 - Definitions - OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.
Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.”&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: If an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Guys running to second are totally allowed by the umps to take out a fielder who’s making a transfer, even if the fielder is off the base. They’re not supposed to be able to do that.</i></p>
<p>If the runner can reach the base with his feet or hand, it is a legal slide and the contact is allowed.  Both players are allowed by rule and interpretation to be in their respective positions.  The runner cannot simply disappear.</p>
<p><i>You can field the ball and make the tag, but you can’t put your feet in a position where the runner can’t reach home plate while you receive the ball and turn and tag the guy out.</i></p>
<p>That would be incorrect.</p>
<p>Direct from the rulebook:  Rule 2.00 &#8211; Definitions &#8211; OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.<br />
Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: <b><i>If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.”</i></b> It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: If an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-722</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 01:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-722</guid>
		<description>Guys running to second are totally allowed by the umps to take out a fielder who&#039;s making a transfer, even if the fielder is off the base. They&#039;re not supposed to be able to do that.

And as for the play at home - catchers set up all the time to try and block runners off the plate to get the tag. You can&#039;t do that. You can field the ball and make the tag, but you can&#039;t put your feet in a position where the runner can&#039;t reach home plate while you receive the ball and turn and tag the guy out.

Well, you can. You&#039;re not supposed to, rule-book wise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys running to second are totally allowed by the umps to take out a fielder who&#8217;s making a transfer, even if the fielder is off the base. They&#8217;re not supposed to be able to do that.</p>
<p>And as for the play at home &#8211; catchers set up all the time to try and block runners off the plate to get the tag. You can&#8217;t do that. You can field the ball and make the tag, but you can&#8217;t put your feet in a position where the runner can&#8217;t reach home plate while you receive the ball and turn and tag the guy out.</p>
<p>Well, you can. You&#8217;re not supposed to, rule-book wise.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-721</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 00:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-721</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In double plays, where the runner to second is allowed a free shot at the fielder&lt;/i&gt;

The runner is not allowed a free shot at the fielder.

&lt;i&gt; and the fielder isn’t required to touch second to get the force out,&lt;/i&gt;

The &quot;neighborhood play,&quot; has long been a source of discussion amongst umpires.  On this one you are correct that strict observance of the runs or interpretations is not followed.  However, umpires do rule the neighborhood play with certain understood and respected criteria.  While you and I might disagree with that criteria, as you said, it is accepted. 

&lt;i&gt;and at home, catchers are allowed to block the progress of the runner&lt;/i&gt;

No, they are not.  And by the way, what you are describing is not &quot;interference.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;and runners are allowed to run full-tilt into the catcher, either to try and knock the ball loose or to even stop them from fielding the ball.&lt;/i&gt;

I agree that running into the catcher is dangerous, but I am unaware of any rule that prevents contact between two players trying to legally occupy the same space while either making a legal play on the ball or legally running the bases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In double plays, where the runner to second is allowed a free shot at the fielder</i></p>
<p>The runner is not allowed a free shot at the fielder.</p>
<p><i> and the fielder isn’t required to touch second to get the force out,</i></p>
<p>The &#8220;neighborhood play,&#8221; has long been a source of discussion amongst umpires.  On this one you are correct that strict observance of the runs or interpretations is not followed.  However, umpires do rule the neighborhood play with certain understood and respected criteria.  While you and I might disagree with that criteria, as you said, it is accepted. </p>
<p><i>and at home, catchers are allowed to block the progress of the runner</i></p>
<p>No, they are not.  And by the way, what you are describing is not &#8220;interference.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>and runners are allowed to run full-tilt into the catcher, either to try and knock the ball loose or to even stop them from fielding the ball.</i></p>
<p>I agree that running into the catcher is dangerous, but I am unaware of any rule that prevents contact between two players trying to legally occupy the same space while either making a legal play on the ball or legally running the bases.</p>
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		<title>By: BJones</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-719</link>
		<dc:creator>BJones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 20:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-719</guid>
		<description>The thought that crossed my mind when Washburn threw at Phelps was whether he was doing it just to keep Jose Guillen off his back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thought that crossed my mind when Washburn threw at Phelps was whether he was doing it just to keep Jose Guillen off his back.</p>
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		<title>By: The 26th Man</title>
		<link>http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-715</link>
		<dc:creator>The 26th Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 19:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/06/josh-phelps-and-the-consequences-of-unforced-rules/#comment-715</guid>
		<description>Phelps&#039; hit on Johjima was bush league. Washburn did the right thing in drilling him the next time up. The situation should have been resolved right there, but Proctor took it a step too far by throwing behind Betancourt.

Let the players play. Love the book, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phelps&#8217; hit on Johjima was bush league. Washburn did the right thing in drilling him the next time up. The situation should have been resolved right there, but Proctor took it a step too far by throwing behind Betancourt.</p>
<p>Let the players play. Love the book, by the way.</p>
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